#9: Be open to tweaking and pivoting as a leader because things are going to change | Vanessa Sandarusi, President of Zeblismapo

Published on February 23, 2022

The special guest of our new episode, Vanessa Sandarusi, talks about integrating EMR, the advantages of creating custom solutions, the importance of gathering clinician data, and the opportunities it gives. You'll learn more about the main things that healthcare organizations should consider if they want to build a custom solution for their needs and details about EMR system adaptation to different locations' needs. Enjoy the listening!

In this episode, we will answer the following questions:

01:58 background story and the main focus in the work

03:18 working with technology in a big healthcare provider - the process of integrating EMR

06:30 how long it takes to build a custom EMR and what it gives for big hospitals

12:48 Custom VS Shelf solutions

14:22 the importance of gathering clinician data and opportunities that it gives

16:41 EMR system adaptation to different locations' needs

18:31 technology solutions that have to be accepted and used by clinicians

20:21 main things that healthcare organizations should consider if they want to build a custom solution for their needs

22:42 leading technology trends in 3-5 years

24:47 main problems to overcome and how pandemic changed the way of working in the healthcare field

29:09 main advice to startups who are building telehealth or other health solution

30:35 Rapid Fire Round (3 questions)



Vanessa Sandarusi email: zeblismapo@gmail.com 

Vanessa Sandarusi LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vanessasandarusi/


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Ivan Dunskiy: Hello everyone. And welcome to another episode of the HealthTech Beat podcast. The mission of our podcast is to show the real-life challenges of implementing technology in healthcare. And the podcast is sponsored by Demigos, a company that develops complex solutions for startups and companies.

You can check more on demigos.com. My name is Ivan Dunskiy, and I'm joined by an honored guest Vanessa Sandarusi, whose leadership and clinical experience ranges from working in a level one trauma center, acute to higher three inpatient rehabilitation facility, home-health outpatient therapy, skilled nursing facilities, ambulatory care, physician practices, and surgical hospital.

She was actively involved in developing the customized EMR built within her areas of expertise over 15 years ago. She has successfully over source services and generated 200 million of revenue within a complex integrated healthcare system. Vanessa is a new resident of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, where she opened her professional coaching practice, Zeblismapo. As a professional coach, Vanessa partners with executives, business owners, and professionals to achieve career, leadership, and business goals. Vanessa, thank you for being here. How are you today?

Vanessa Sandarusi: Thank you, Ivan. I am doing wonderful. It's unusually warm here in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and we're getting closer to Christmas, and I'm expecting we would have a lot of snow.

We did have a lot of snow last year, but today it's not like that. 

[01:58] background story and the main focus in the work

Ivan Dunskiy: Could you please give a brief background of who you are and your main focus in your work at the moment?

Vanessa Sandarusi: Who am I? I have an insatiable curiosity, my background as a clinician, as an occupational therapist. And then, I pursued a dual master's degree in business administration and health services administration because I felt like there were opportunities to integrate how we do things in healthcare and have more of the business focus, and certainly wanted to look at how I use my clinical mind of how we can improve what we do to meet the needs of patient care. I've worked as a healthcare executive for close to 20 plus years and worked in healthcare leadership along the continuum of care, as you've mentioned, Ivan. And then, in the middle of a pandemic, we decided to move to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, from Ohio. And with that move, I decided to open up my professional coaching business, where I've been formally trained through coach university and have been working with executives, business owners, as well as professionals when they're focusing on their careers, leadership development, and development of their business.

[03:18] experience working with technology in a big healthcare provider - the process of integrating EMR

Ivan Dunskiy: Thank you. You worked for many years at one of the nation's largest hospital system as an administrative director. Could you please tell us about your experience working with technology in a big healthcare provider? 

Vanessa Sandarusi: I worked at the time when we were still using paper charts. And working with an organization to transition from paper charts to electronic medical records is definitely a big process to go through.

And I was one out of the many experts who were involved in a very large project. And we first focused on the clinical end, and it was a custom build. So with that, we needed to work with individuals from the IT realm who had the expertise in building the product. And how do you take something from a vision perspective and make it tangible?

And it connects the dots for clinicians who have a hard time envisioning how that is going to work for them and keep them efficient and effective and providing care. Expertise was needed in terms of regulations, considering how the clinical design needed to be considered when building your template.

Are you addressing all the standards that we have to follow? Reimbursement regulations that we have to follow? And is that built into the EMR? And then, on top of that, what we do and how that connects with other parts of an organization when it comes to the care we provide for the patients. So it was definitely a lot of bottom-up versus top-down approach.

And I think that if you take an out of box approach, it can feel like a top-down approach from most clinicians. And I felt like we did a really good job of engaging our clinicians and being part of the process from frontline managers, to staff, to physicians, as well as anyone from the administrative end.

So I think the organization did an excellent job of how they implemented the EMR. It was painful, but I think the approach was very thought out and definitely took in consideration of key stakeholders within the organization. 

Ivan Dunskiy: It's interesting that paper charts are still in place in some organizations.

Vanessa Sandarusi: They are. I've had some colleagues who work nationally and for organizations when I was involved in developing a national certification program for managers and rehab services and getting feedback from some colleagues who said: Well, we still use paper charts, and I was taken back. I'm like: Really?

But I was blessed to be part of a large integrative health care system where they had the financial means and resources to make things happen, not just financially, but just people. There are a lot of organizations that haven't implemented the technology that exists because of either costs or they just don't have the personnel resources to help make that happen and be effective. 

[06:30] how long it takes to build a custom EMR and what it gives for big hospitals

Ivan Dunskiy: Why did this hospital system choose to go with the custom development route rather than the shelf solution? 

Vanessa Sandarusi: I think it's the nature of the organization's culture, where there's that value of the uniqueness of what we're able to provide to our patients and what we do and being a level one trauma center within that region.

I mean, there's a level of creativity that's needed in order to take care of the type of individuals that we took care of. And I think it's just the leadership in and really wanting to meet the needs of the physicians, as well as the clinicians who provide the care to the patients versus believing no offense to any IT organization out there, believing that someone who may not necessarily have worked in healthcare really knows what needs to be done, to build an EMR for the organization at the time.

Ivan Dunskiy: As I see, the advantage is that the organization was confident that they could provide better care to specific segments of patients with the custom solution. 

Vanessa Sandarusi: Absolutely. And we've had individuals who were involved in the project that had over 10-15+ years of experience as clinicians, and outside of just working with patients, they knew the regulatory aspects that needed to be built, what it needed to be built from a standards perspective, with all the different accrediting bodies that each area needed to make sure we're addressing. 

And so it just made more sense cause one entity, especially back at that time, cause there was not a lot of EMR is out there working with large complex healthcare systems, maybe small electronic medical records for captured markets. But nothing to this extent. I think that it was pretty wise to really engage the large masses of stakeholders that would be impacted by the system.

Ivan Dunskiy: How long did it take to build the system? 

Vanessa Sandarusi: Wow. That's a good question. I would think it took a few years in terms of the strategy and thinking it through and identifying who would be engaged in that process, partnering with the organization that would be helping with the EMR, and I would say that probably took at least two or three years if I recall.

And then the building aspect could take about a couple of years and then launch. 

Ivan Dunskiy: So, about fire fears in total. 

Vanessa Sandarusi: Possibly. I would say where it was on paper from a strategy perspective and processing of the next steps and who needs to be part of it started before I actually started with the organization.

And I just happened to be blessed to be there at the time to be involved in the custom build for my areas of responsibility. 

Ivan Dunskiy: Do you think that it did pay off?

Vanessa Sandarusi: I think it did. It's you don't know what you don't know. And just like communication between two human beings. You think you're talking about the same thing, and I'm sure you've been in that situation. You've been in a meeting, and you say one word, and you have this vision of what that word means.

And then that other person may have a vision of what that word means. And then you walk away, and you realize: You guys were not on the same page. Well, could you imagine when it comes to building technology, and we're trying to explain things as clinicians or individuals, or our experience from the finance side? And trying to say, this is how it needs to be.

And this is how the flow needs to be in order for me to be effective in meeting the needs of our patients and meeting everything else we know that we need to address. And then connecting those dots to people who are building the technology that may not have that healthcare background or experience.

Ivan Dunskiy: And was the development team within their organization, or was it outside? 

Vanessa Sandarusi: Good question. It was a combination. And with that, you may have individuals who didn't have that expertise and being an expert in terms of the bill. And I think it was a learning process. There were clinicians that jumped on board to be on that side of the build and then to learn how to build. Like nowadays, as I use with my coaching practice, I work with a product that I can build my assessments, my tools, my intake process. And it doesn't seem like a big deal on how to do that, just because the programming is more advanced, it's more user-friendly back then to envision what that's going to look like.

And feel confident at the end of the day, is it going to work for you. I think it was pretty scary for a lot of clinicians. It was exciting and dark scary. You didn't know what you didn't know until you really got to the end of that. Like sort of like climbing if you've ever climbed the mountain.

And it's your first time you climbed a mountain, you can kind of imagine what to experience, and you think you try to prepare yourself for it, but you never know until you get to a certain level. And then when you get to higher elevations, like, I'm having a hard time breathing, or I need to loosen the load, or you do things differently.

You don't know, you can prepare yourself mentally, and you could talk to as many people as you want when it comes to "Well, how do I do this and be successful," but you won't know until you're actually in the middle of it and you start that journey. And I think that was what we experienced this all as well. 

[12:48] Custom VS Shelf solutions

Ivan Dunskiy: I see. And now, there are so many EMR products on the market. Do you think that nowadays, that is worth building a custom solution for a healthcare organization, or is it better to use the existing ones? 

Vanessa Sandarusi: Probably not as much now. Building out of the box. I think the IT organizations have gotten more sophisticated as well as have different individuals on their team to make sure they have what they need to have more of an out of box product with the capabilities of it being hybrid, where there may need to be some customization because maybe practices are different in different parts of the nation. That might need to be something to take in consideration. 

Or the organizational structure is different than other organizations. So workflow may be slightly different because of, just whatever it is nationally, to even, probably right now, the biggest challenge I would think is the insurance companies. How do you make sure you keep up with the policies that are changed? That you're updating your systems on that end? 

And addressing what you need to address on the clinical end to make sure you get reimbursed. So I think there needs to be a little bit of a hybrid, depending on where that product is being used within the nation, or even just outside of where I live in the United States. Obviously, it's different in different parts of the world.

[14:22] the importance of gathering clinician data and opportunities that it gives

Ivan Dunskiy: And also, I speak with many clinicians and healthcare executives, and many say that the data is a big thing right now and that it is crucial to gather different types of data. Clinician data, claims data. To see it in one place to make decisions on the clinical side, on the administrative side.

Do you see that as necessary as well? What is your opinion on that? 

Vanessa Sandarusi: I think it's exciting, and there are definitely opportunities. Some of my learnings throughout the years when it comes to the electronic medical record is from the billing perspective. And for IT individuals, if I use the terminology wrong, please forgive me.

My background is in clinician operations more in terms of the business. But having data, I think, it's the word discreet and how it is entered into the system. So you can pull it effectively and put it into some type of database to extract it and then analyze it. I feel like that could be more of the challenge now.

And when I think about when we did our bill with the large healthcare system and then working with a smaller organization where we were looking at making some of those transitions, those are the conversations we had, where I didn't know the end product and other aspects of our business that we would want at the end of this build. 

So we tended to just focus more on the front end piece. Then, further along, as we progress, you want to become more efficient, more productive, make better decisions in terms of patients in healthcare. Then you think about the front end on how it's built. That it's not meeting the backend to get the information that you need to make good decisions, which I'm sure that's what you're hearing.

And like I mentioned, in terms of communication, we thought this meant this, but then you go to a different part of the country is like, no, that means this. And this is why we build for it. Just so there's a lot of opportunities and Being on the same page in terms of languaging and how we view things. And practices too. There are just so many variables in healthcare. 

[16:41] EMR system adaptation to different locations' needs

Ivan Dunskiy: So, did you adapt the product, the EMR, to different locations? For example, different locations operate differently, so you need to adapt the product according to their needs. 

Vanessa Sandarusi: For the larger healthcare system, and I think it's the same with other systems, at some point in time, you can only adapt so far and customize that you have to standardize and to have one of the different types of technology. It's not efficient or effective for the IT division. And when it comes to the pieces that need to be pulled together for effective integration, there were opportunities. I don't know where things are in terms of interoperability, but there are definitely opportunities when you're dealing with all these different types of systems, especially when it comes to specialty niches that how can you get information more effectively if you have a primary care physician practice, that's not under a health care system and get that information efficiently to a home health agency that's providing care for a patient that was recently in a hospital. And get accurate information because I've certainly experienced that when patients are saying, I keep repeating myself: don't you have that information? And I still think that's still going on is that every clinician that goes to see the patient, you're asking the same questions. 

Ivan Dunskiy: It's frustrating. 

Vanessa Sandarusi: On the user end, even when our patient is still very frustrating for us.

Ivan Dunskiy: It happens that companies invest a lot in technology, but the technology becomes useless because clinicians don't use it, whether they don't have time or the user experience is bad, and so on.

[18:31] technology solutions that have to be accepted and used by clinicians

So what do you think technology solutions should have to be accepted and used by clinicians? 

Vanessa Sandarusi: We need more clinicians that go on the IT side, and I think there has been an evolution of that happening, and it's probably not happening fast enough. And I've known like nurses who would decide that they're a better fit from the IT end.

And then they get more engaged from that to even physicians, or you're even seeing like physicians getting their MBA. So they can be running the healthcare organization. So I think there are those opportunities. And how do we make it easier for those clinicians to crossover and know that there are opportunities to use their expertise when it comes to the IT bill?

I don't know, necessarily, believe it's true that all clinicians are not using the technology. I felt that when it was the younger clinicians who used computers, most of their educational life, that transition really wasn't a big deal for them. And when it was individuals who didn't necessarily use that technology, most of their educational life or career, the transition was bumpier for them. However, what I had noticed was in some respects that it might be just a lack of experience as a clinician, the critical thinking was opportunities for development where I would see clinicians wanting to use canned phrases in their documentation versus really seeing what they're seeing with the patient and documenting it effectively within the EMR. Because we wanted to be efficient.

So we thought, Kevin can freeze, this would be helpful, but that doesn't necessarily help us when it comes to meeting the needs of our patients.

[20:21] main things that healthcare organizations should consider if they want to build a custom solution for their needs

Ivan Dunskiy: Could you please tell us the process of how we built the EMR and what the process was like to build it in terms of involving different clinicians? And, maybe you can share some lessons learned from this experience. What should healthcare organizations consider if they want to build a custom solution for their needs? How do you see the efficient process for this approach? 

Vanessa Sandarusi: Again, there were many players, and I wasn't the key point person at pulling that together, but when it comes to my areas of responsibility and knowing what I know today, there are definitely already out of the box products out there that have a strong understanding of the regulatory needs that most of us have to address as clinicians. 

So I certainly would go that route because implementation is a lot faster. And when you implement major changes like this, productivity declines. And I know organizationally that's a concern of how that affects revenue generation.

And I would highly recommend considering that to the extent that you potentially could create some hybrid custom builds based on where you are nationally. I think our reimbursement system, Medicare, Medicaid, continues to keep being a driving force to help increase standardization, and organizations are slowly or have made those changes.

So there's definitely been a better evolution of what things look like from a technology perspective than when we started over 15 years ago because even getting information about regulations from a Medicare Medicaid perspective, finding it, and having access to that information wasn't that easy either.

Cause I remember reading the federal register. I remember talking to a past executive, like, do you remember getting the documents and reading these little, these forms, but now you could just find that information online. It goes both ways. Where do you have access to information to be effective as a clinician or executive?

And then having more people that have that knowledge base to help you be successful. 

[22:42] leading technology trends in 3-5 years

Ivan Dunskiy: And what technology trends in healthcare do you see in the next three, five years? 

Vanessa Sandarusi: I feel like the pandemic has had a significant play on what smoothed forward quickly and what may have been on a wishlist for healthcare leaders in some respects. 

So talking about telehealth and looking at that, I can say a wishlist from healthcare leaders from my perspective is internet access everywhere for everyone, no matter where you are social economically. And to the extent that you're able to have that and then have the devices that you can use to interact with your healthcare provider or clinician. I think that would be my wishlist versus saying, this is what's going to happen. There are only certain individuals that have access to this. 

I mean, you and I are blessed that we have this technology that we can talk about across the world. But that's not necessarily so when it comes to the individuals who need or are using healthcare the most that have chronic conditions. Rural areas or it could be in the city. There is like internet accessible, but they don't have the devices. They can't afford the devices. And they may not have the transportation, or even if there is transportation, they don't have the physical capabilities to go from where they are, where they're living to the healthcare provider.

So there are just so many dynamics, especially with people living longer, having disabilities. There are a lot of pieces to take into consideration. So my wishlist is accessibility for mobile devices for individuals saying that internet access, no matter where you are. 

Ivan Dunskiy: Of course. It's useless to build products if not all of the people can use them, I mean the telemedicine apps and so on. 

Vanessa Sandarusi: Right.

[24:47] main problems to overcome and how pandemic changed the way of working in the healthcare field

Ivan Dunskiy: Great. Could you please share with us, what is the main focus in your work right now? What are your main goals? Maybe some problems that you experience and then you're trying to overcome? 

Vanessa Sandarusi: I am currently not working directly for a healthcare organization.

My main focus is on my professional coaching business and working with leaders, working with individuals in the healthcare profession, when it comes to how you can be more effective as a leader. And business owners, as well as people who are making transitions with their careers. And with that under my business, I also have a private occupational therapy practice where I've been working with the home health agency.

So from a technology perspective, what I find is fascinating for an individual practitioner like myself. And as a coach, my ability to find products that are out there. That is a mobile base. And schedule a patient and then communicate to them when I'm going to see them. And so that implementation probably only took a few weeks from a large healthcare system to get everybody in the agreement or what you're going to use, and how do you make it work? That takes a lot longer.

So, right now, my focus is meeting the needs of individuals on a one-to-one basis. What better working with from a healthcare perspective. And then working with professionals who want to make the world a better place as leaders within anywhere, within a nation, or any business industry. 

Ivan Dunskiy: Not necessarily healthcare, right?

Vanessa Sandarusi: Not necessarily. Not at all. As a coach or even as a leader. There's I think we all have these core principles that we like to follow and what we want to do. Making a difference, obviously, there's that margin, but then there are other things that we need to take into consideration as leaders and the noble cause of why we chose to do what we do as leaders and healthcare or any industry.

Absolutely. And what I've learned, even just working in the acute psychiatry businesses, is that you can compartmentalize your life as much as possible. But I think the pandemic has shown and reality that life cannot necessarily be compartmentalized, especially if you have kids who can't go to school, when you got to teach them now or help with their educational process, plus you still got to work.

And then if you have older family members who are not staying in the hospital longer, or maybe not going to long-term care as long as they used to, then you're helping take care of them at home as well. So there are just so many dynamics in a person's life that they need to organize. And the pandemic has just made it.

I always say I feel like it's more tenfold. And that are some of the things that I talked to with some clients, as well as just how do they maintain their sanity, focus on the work and create the balance that they need in their lives on a day-to-day basis. And also continue to have hope as we continue to work through this pandemic.

Ivan Dunskiy: Balance is definitely what we all need right now. 

Vanessa Sandarusi: And I don't even know if there's such thing as balance. It's just knowing what your priorities are at the moment, and then what you do as a human being, to center yourself, to be at peace within yourself in order to focus on what's important at this point in time, and what you thought was important five years ago, it's going to be different.

Five years in the future. And being aware of that and knowing how to adjust to those changes that you're experiencing within your life. 

Ivan Dunskiy: Of course. With the pandemic, I think that now work and life are tied together more than before when you went to the office, and you get home, and now we are in the home.

You can spend time with your family. Now it's everything combined. So that is why you need to think about priorities and balance. 

Vanessa Sandarusi: Yes. The pandemic has caused a shift in many things in our lives, business, personal, or even just. For most people, even just what you thought was a priority in the past is probably not a priority anymore. 

[29:09] main advice to startups who are building telehealth or other health solution

Ivan Dunskiy: What kind of advice can you give to people who build their startups for healthcare, who build products for healthcare? What kind of advice can you give them? What do they need to consider if they want to build a product or they want to sell a product to the healthcare organization, or maybe to the big healthcare organization?

Vanessa Sandarusi: Good question. Especially if you're in the beginning, and one of the strategy tools that I had come across was lean canvas modeling. And if I can remember Ash's last name, he had written a really good book. I'm going to say it's Maurya. He wrote a book on lean canvas modeling and the steps that you needed to take.

And he also has something on the web that you can play around with that. But it's one thing to have your own idea, but then you need to reach out to individuals who you think would use your product. Because what you think may not be what you expect. You just need to talk to your stakeholders and build according to the stakeholders, and you may end up having to pivot what your original intent is.

I would highly recommend that approach. And be open to tweaking and pivoting as a leader or developer because things are going to change. People's views of how things look are going to change. I would highly recommend that approach. 

[30:35] Rapid Fire Round (3 questions)

Ivan Dunskiy: Thank you. I think that we covered a lot during this interview, and we're coming to an end. And I want to finish with the light exercise called rapid fire round.

I will ask you several questions, and you will give answers to whatever we want. What is your hobby? 

Vanessa Sandarusi: My hobby right now... It's getting colder, but golf has been my hobby. Learning to get that perfect swing and then not let my head get in the way of my game.

Ivan Dunskiy: Do you use it to build your network? 

Vanessa Sandarusi: No, actually. 

Ivan Dunskiy: That is a tool that is used to build a network. 

Vanessa Sandarusi: I don't know if I even thought of it that way. At first, I never really liked golf. Years ago, when I took lessons that I really got into, there were a lot of life lessons because I've also been volunteering with the first tee and working with kids and teaching them golf.

And there are definitely a lot of life lessons you can learn from golf. And it's amazing when you have a really good swing, and I'm not saying I have a really good swing, but you think you got it. But conditions change, and you got to adjust to those conditions. And literally, if your head's in the way, it gets in the way of you being effective in golf. And sometimes, I think I learned a lot of lessons in life when it comes to golf. One, if you had a bad hole previously, let it go and move on. Just focus on the now and focus on this hole that you're on right now. And isn't that in life, if you fail in something in life or even in your business, you can't keep dwelling on it, or you're not going to be able to move forward.

It's the same thing in life and golf. So I like the combination of the mind, and I wouldn't say necessarily the physical aspect, but the older I am, definitely the physical aspects of golf and getting out in nature. 

Ivan Dunskiy: And what is the location that impressed you the most? 

Vanessa Sandarusi: The location? I haven't traveled as much as I like that I have traveled. I'd mentioned rock climbing. So I would say that was pretty impressive. Especially as a young person driving across the United States, going through flat land. And then, all of a sudden, you're driving into Colorado, and then you see these massive mountains that you've never seen before.

I would think that was, for me at that point in time was the most impressive experience that I've ever had on top of just the opportunities to climb with some friends and see things that I've never seen before, just grown up in Ohio. 

Ivan Dunskiy: And what is the one piece of advice you would give to your 20-year-old self?

Vanessa Sandarusi: That's a good question. So I grew up with individuals who didn't look like me. There are not very many Filipinos where I grew up in a small rural area in Ohio. And with that, I think I took the safe route in some things. And I would have told my 20-year-old self - embrace your uniqueness.

And who you are, and don't be afraid to take risks and follow your heart when it comes to living the life that you want to live versus the life that others say you should live, or you think that they say that you should live. So, I would have told my 20-year-old self that. And now I told my nephews that. And they've just done some incredible things. And even my younger sister, she's 16 years younger than me. So it's been fun to watch people younger than me really embrace who they are and live the life that is true to them and what their heart tells them to do. 

Ivan Dunskiy: Nowadays, the world is changing so fast that not necessarily adults understand what to do better than children.

Vanessa Sandarusi: Maybe, have you heard the term? Out of the mouth of babies. And then if you hear someone who's younger, and you're like: Where did they get that? Cause some of them are from the youngest kids, you could hear the most profound things that we forget as we get older and need to get back to sometimes. 

Ivan Dunskiy: I think that's the perfect way to end today's interview. Thank you, Vanessa, for your time and the shared experience and building custom solutions for the large healthcare organization, as well as your thoughts about how it is better to build a solution in nowadays environment that is better to choose maybe, or to consider of the shelf solution first and then customize it if needed.

Thank you for your experience. Thank you for sharing your story. Before we finish, what is the best way to get in touch with you? If people, for example, would be interested in your coaching services. 

Vanessa Sandarusi: Thank you. The best way to get in touch with me -you could go to my website, or you could email me.

So the company is Zeblismapo. And it's a combination of four words, zest, bliss, magic, and power. Where basically, I just focus on working with individuals to have more zest in their life, to really get more in alignment with their values of who they truly are. And magic is when you're aligned with your values. Then basically, things just fall into place.

The synchronicity happens because you're doing what you're doing based on your heart and following your heart and empowers, just embracing the uniqueness of who you are and bringing those gifts into the world. So zeblismapo@gmail.com. And you guys have happy holidays, and thank you for your time, Ivan.

Thank you. I will include all the links in the resources section. And happy holidays. 

Who is behind the HealthTech Beat podcast

We are a team of IT professionals who like sharing technical knowledge with healthcare industry people.

At Demigos, we generate ideas on how to improve product performance, design, and positioning based on our experience building complex health tech solutions.

Check our blog with articles on the related topics, and our cases in healthtech. Also, connect the podcast host and the CEO of Demigos Ivan Dunskiy on Linkedin.